sariagray

Allow me to add to your morbidity!

I hope I'm not offending you should you already have a loved one in an urn in your life, and maybe you already know this, but I'm leading to a point, I swear!

Cremation does not reduce a body to ash. Bone fragments remain, sometimes rather sizable ones despite the intense heat. They're usually pulverized as the last stage of the process. Even then, it's not a fine, consistent ash unless the crematorium takes great pains to sift and pulverize repeatedly. The four sets of cremains I have are like coarse sand with some flecks of bone that are comparable to the size and shape of a panko bread crumb (Yes, I admit I'm weird, but I just spent several minutes trying to think of something similar).

My point is that cremation should give no different results than those for the crispy-fried bomber from E1. The cremated people may not have nice moist eyes and functioning lids, but there's still SOMETHING there to contain this abundance of life Jack says they have.

Also, Vera herself points out that no one goes into comas any longer, and no one has the mercy of losing consciousness. So they writers are either completely forgetting what they've already established (which wouldn't surprise me), or that's part of the point they're trying to make: it's really THAT horrible what's being done.

All of which leaves me wondering exactly WHAT Gwen blew up, and if there were any people inside...

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I did not know this! I appreciate the lesson. :) In the case where any part that retains DNA (or VNA - Vortex Nucleic Acids?) still exists, I imagine he'd be able to knit himself back together.

I wonder, though, if there might be a temperature (hypothetically rather than rationally) at which all remains are reduced to ash. Like, for example, if we threw Jack into the center of the sun?

You're absolutely right on the point of sentience - but my head is just having such a hard time defining sentient ash. When they severed the crispy-fried bomber, he blinked. But his eyes were still attached to his brain; the brain shouldn't be functioning, but it was still there, so I think that's where my own brain shorts out with the ash-and-bone-fragments people. The bone wouldn't be more sentient than bone already is, unless it's Super Bone (which...sounds like a pornstar superhero).

And would Owen still be sentient if they had burned him? I mean, nuclear melt-down, right? Are there sentient Owen-bits still in Cardiff?

Conceptually, I get it. It's the practicality that has me confused, I suppose.

Yeah, the "I AM MAD AT BURNING PEOPLE! I WILL BLOW THEM UP INSTEAD!" thing had me scratching my head a bit. I assume there were people still in there/around. And that's...well, clearly Gwen has changed, huh?

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Well, the great thing about Jack is it doesn't HAVE to make sense. His VNA (love that) is indestructible. They established his immortality as an extreme example of what was already inexplicable. It's the heart of a TARDIS, of course it's ineffable.

What makes the whole Miracle thing hard to sort out is that they had to do something medically impossible to establish the impact in the first place, but then they're trying to support it using actual medical science.

I actually had to unofficially consult on a murder by immolation case many years ago, but you don't need to have seen pictures to know that, if the head is burned to the point that the entire surface is charred, the eyelids will no longer exist, nor will the eyeballs. So as we struggle to make sense of how the brain is still sending impulses to the eyes, we're missing that the eyes should no longer be there.

This is RTD's world, so a body does not have a soul. The bomber did not have enough of anything left to support even the most basic nerve impulses. Without oxygen and blood circulation, the brain should have died even if it didn't burn. Yet the Miracle causes *something* to remain, to cling to the remains, even. So, IMHO, if there's anything left, the Miracle is going to stick to it like glue.

As for Owen, that was different. It was Old Torchwood, where lapses in logic and science didn't matter so much. Owen's Not Death wasn't the core mystery of an entire season. Heck, it was barely the core of the episode in which he Didn't Die.

But, in the ep, even he and Toshiko agree: "my body will slowly decompose while I watch." Which makes sense. He couldn't drown, and the irradiated coolant may, um, poach him, but he won't die from that, either. So, um, yeah... There are potentially still bits of Owen hanging around in Turnmill, aware. Just depends on how long it takes a human body to decompose and what the mechanism was keeping his consciousness attached to a dead body.

As much as I'm happy for the shout-out to Ianto? They really should have been thinking of Owen at that point, because he's the closest thing they've ever seen to the Miracle.

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It's funny the things my brain is willing to overlook, and the things it isn't. You're absolutely right that the eyeballs would not be there, but that didn't bother me a bit. But sentient ash? I cannot handle it. Not even because I think it's too horrible (which I do, obviously), but because it just...does not compute even as a fantasy concept. And normally, I can believe pretty much anything.

Like I said, it makes sense conceptually. Like math. It's just...applying it that makes my head spin. Which is weird, because I'm seeing the application, and I get the concept, so it should connect just fine. But...sentient ash?! *Flicks cigarette*

As for Owen...if his body rots, and there's still consciousness, does that consciousness end up as runoff into the bay? Are there sentient Owen-fish? Or does it become the soil? Are there sentient Owen-flowers or Owen-grass? This would be interesting.

And you're right; the mention of Owen in the first episode was nice, too, but it would be more interesting to connect that for the new audience. And in reality, I find it hard to believe that Gwen hasn't said anything like, "Is this Owen on a mass scale? Is there a really big glove?" Shout-outs to Ianto are great, but there's a whole team of people and past experiences that they're not pulling from, which doesn't make sense at all. Well. Of course it doesn't make sense. It's Torchwood. Never mind, carry on! :D

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As you said, it's funny what we are willing to accept and what we choose for further study. It'd be much easier if it had some sort of internal consistency, but it doesn't. I think that's what we're struggling with. The fact that we're TRYING to make sense of it is some sort of commentary on the human condition, I'm sure, only I'm afraid of whether it's literal or meta :)

Owen would be grass. Definitely grass.

"And what IS that smell?"

"That would be you..."

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xrai-namere.livejournal.com

It has been implied that Jack was incinerated (or almost) in that episode in Doctor Who, the one with the Daleks. He's presumed dead and dumped into an incinerator. But since he came out with his clothing intact I don't suppose that counts.

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Unless his clothing also...can't die! :D

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This is where we need to remind ourselves of Sam Storyteller's sentient coat fic. It probably LOVED the nice, toasty incinerator and morphed into asbestos undies for Jack-o :)

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I'm just popping in to say...

IF THEY HAD BURNT JACK TO A KENTUCKY FRIED CRISP, HE STILL WOULD HAVE COME BACK.

If he can come back from being blown up from a stomach!bomb into itty bitty bits, reconstituting from ashes isn't actually the biggest leap.

We've already established that world isn't not!dying the way Jack was dying and coming back. Meaning that if it really does turn out that Jack's DNA was used to make the miracle...it makes NO SENSE. Argh.

Someone, and I honestly can't remember who, did make the comment that it's possible that the people are still aware, as ASHES. Which would actually be so creepy as to probably go back around to ridiculous, but would still be plenty painful and I don't think they've thought that far, honestly. I'm actually hoping really hard for a truly surprising turn-around ending, wherein Jack has been immortal this whole time, just overreacting, and it's really an alien conspiracy from Mars. COME ON RTD. DON'T LET MY CRACK!THEORIES DOWN.

(Owen is totes still hanging around the nuclear plant, bits of DNA floating in the wind. Probably snarking to himself a lot.)

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A crisp, yes. But ashes spread 'round the world?

What if...they're trying to make a sentient...thing out of the ashes? Like...sentient metal or something? Or...sentient plants! Recycle Ash!

I don't know why my brain is okay with body bits knitting back together rather than ash. Maybe it's...cell-structure related? If it's pure ash, there would be no living cell left, but the possibility of there being a living cell left from which to rebuild is much higher, even when blown up.

I need to stop thinking. And go to work. Bah!

(I like Owen hanging around, snarking to himself. This is a positive outcome. Unless you're...Owen.)

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If Jack loses, say a hand, he'd grow back a new one, but that old hand would be dead, inert. Obviously, some of the Jack!ash would just fly away. The bits of bone that remain would probably form our new Jack.

(Sentient ash could lead into that Little Shop of Horrors crossover I've been waiting for!!!)

We're used to thinking of burnt=dead and gone, so it's hard to think of anyone being alive or able to come back from that. That makes perfect sense! Which is why it seems the show is using burning as the only way to kill people now. But if their WHOLE PREMISE is that death is now impossible, changing the laws of science, even burning people shouldn't be able to get past that. Dude had no neck and he blinked. Ash should be sentient in that sort of crazy world.

(I like to think Owen has been watching the news over people's shoulders and is mentally shouting at Gwen and Jack to GET ON THAT. "In my day, cases like these would take us a day! It was so quick, it felt like 45 minutes!")

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Oh god... Now I've got Feed Me, Seymour stuck in my head, except it's more like: "Feed me, Ianto. Feed me all night long..."

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♪ ♫ "'Cause if you feed me, Ianto, I can grow up big and strong!" ♪ ♫

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Speaking of Jack, and Kentucky Fried...

Captain Jack Harkness, Finger Lickin' Good!

(sorry, it had to be said)

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~~Yes, but who is licking whose fingers in this equation exactly?~~

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siobhan-jane.livejournal.com

This was the first episode I actually liked. Up until now, I've been like "whatever", but I actually got into the ep. I think it was because there was a bit more Jack/Gwen/Rhys interaction. When the old team is together, I care. When they aren't..eh.

I don't think they did a good job with the Gwen explosion scene. It was totally unclear to me what she was blowing up. And yeah, were there people in there?

And of course, as I figured, this is turning out to be all about Jack...which is ok with me. He's the only reason I watch the show anyway.

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I get where you're coming from, but it would be so nice to have something POSITIVE be all about Jack instead this ongoing series of horrible things directly or indirectly related to him.

He's lost so much and given so much that it's depressing to see him continuing to suffer.

I think the explosion was about the explosion, not about any character development or plot consistency. It read to me like "OK, now, we're going to have Gwen explode the camp to take it down, how do we get to that point? Wait, we only have ten minutes left in this episode because we let Maloney go on and on about badminton? OK, here's what we do, she stumbles across some C4 - it's there as a backup plan in case the crematoriums fail, silly! - then we have her..."

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Jane Espenson announced on Twitter that the ash as a result from the cremations is NOT sentient. Cremation = Deader than Dead.

That being said, I agree with a lot of things said in the comments regarding eyeballs and brain function/dysfunction and ashes not being 100% pure ash (My grandparents and uncle all have pride of place on top of the dvd cupboard at my parents house).

My big thing was - the brain (head) gets severed from the body, therefore, it shouldn't really be connected to anything any more, so by rights those people (ie, the blown up guy from episode 1), should be equivalent to zombie or a couch potato.

As for Gwen's stunning display with the C4, I think the ovens were empty because the doctor/nurse/official kept commenting on bodies not being moved to the module until 6am.

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It's not canon 'till it's in the show. (Personal Mantra.)

If something is so unclear in the show that producers need to come out and tell us about it, then it's not ready to be launched. Deliberate skimming is one thing, but that was pretty important factoid.

It also renders the whole miracle sort of pointless. Oh, no one can die! But you can render yourself brain-dead and have yourself cremated! Which is totally not really death! Totally!

(Sorry for the rambling at you. You're just the first person to mention the Espenson tweet.)

I do completely agree with you about Gwen and the C4. It makes a lot of sense!

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Haha, ramble away!

I agree, it is a very large over-sight on their behalf, but I just thought I'd put it out there, devil's advocate and all...

I have serious issues: Unless it's canon, I like to discount A LOT of stuff... My other main fandom has a major character arc that kinda turned me away from the character a little bit, and a certain pairing, but fans are adamant that "Word of God" has made it so that the character in question was "redeemed" off-screen.

Off-screen being when asked at a convention...

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Devil's advocate is the best part of online conversation! :)

I've always held the anything not in the original show -- books, games, comics, radio shows, etc. -- are "optional canon" at best. You can take it or leave it, and no one can force you to accept it as canon. Word of God is just another form of optional canon, with even less clout, honestly. It's also far less satisfying. Like in your other fandom. Redeemed off-screen at a con? Not hardly enough. (Was it Buffy? Which character? 'cause I can think of two off the top of my head that didn't satisfy me, but I haven't watched in a long while...)

Of course, the problem always comes in when fandom at large embraces some factoid and you personally don't want it, or don't feel you should have to accept it. Or you just want to write a story that ignores it, even if you like the optional interpretation in general.

(See it here in Torchwood. Someone writes a story that mentions how many people survived Canary Wharf and everyone recites the number from the website, 27 I think. But what if you want to write a story with 100 survivors? Or four? You shouldn't have to warn for AU, it's not mentioned in canon. Oh, fandom.)

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Haha, yeah, it was Buffy. Icon was a dead give-away.

The character was Spike. His whole character arc at the end of season 6 really made me rethink what it was I liked about the character and how, in the space of a few short episodes, he'd been completely destroyed in my eyes, and it wasn't until season 5 of Angel that he'd slowly started to return to the character I liked in his early Buffy days.

... And don't even get me started about the "Comic book canon"... Killing off my favourite male character? Yeah, one aspect of "canon" I'm happily overlooking.

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