MD Thoughts

[sariagray]

Okay. Here's a thought. It's probably not a new thought at all, but...it exists.

No one can die. Unless they're burned. I'm going to go with burning actually working for now, until proven otherwise. If I missed a line of dialogue somewhere that contradicts this, let me know.

So. Let's say Jack was incinerated. Instantly. Completely. How does he come back from that? I mean, of course, prior to the Miracle. And I know he's been exploded and came back from that, but burnt to nothing but ash? That isn't regenerating cells, as there is no point to start from. Just...ash.

Also, if Owen had really wanted to die...couldn't they have incinerated him? It'd work the same way, I imagine.

I'm going to go...stop being morbid now.

Comments

[lawsontl.livejournal.com]

Allow me to add to your morbidity!

I hope I'm not offending you should you already have a loved one in an urn in your life, and maybe you already know this, but I'm leading to a point, I swear!

Cremation does not reduce a body to ash. Bone fragments remain, sometimes rather sizable ones despite the intense heat. They're usually pulverized as the last stage of the process. Even then, it's not a fine, consistent ash unless the crematorium takes great pains to sift and pulverize repeatedly. The four sets of cremains I have are like coarse sand with some flecks of bone that are comparable to the size and shape of a panko bread crumb (Yes, I admit I'm weird, but I just spent several minutes trying to think of something similar).

My point is that cremation should give no different results than those for the crispy-fried bomber from E1. The cremated people may not have nice moist eyes and functioning lids, but there's still SOMETHING there to contain this abundance of life Jack says they have.

Also, Vera herself points out that no one goes into comas any longer, and no one has the mercy of losing consciousness. So they writers are either completely forgetting what they've already established (which wouldn't surprise me), or that's part of the point they're trying to make: it's really THAT horrible what's being done.

All of which leaves me wondering exactly WHAT Gwen blew up, and if there were any people inside...

[sariagray.livejournal.com]

I did not know this! I appreciate the lesson. :) In the case where any part that retains DNA (or VNA - Vortex Nucleic Acids?) still exists, I imagine he'd be able to knit himself back together.

I wonder, though, if there might be a temperature (hypothetically rather than rationally) at which all remains are reduced to ash. Like, for example, if we threw Jack into the center of the sun?

You're absolutely right on the point of sentience - but my head is just having such a hard time defining sentient ash. When they severed the crispy-fried bomber, he blinked. But his eyes were still attached to his brain; the brain shouldn't be functioning, but it was still there, so I think that's where my own brain shorts out with the ash-and-bone-fragments people. The bone wouldn't be more sentient than bone already is, unless it's Super Bone (which...sounds like a pornstar superhero).

And would Owen still be sentient if they had burned him? I mean, nuclear melt-down, right? Are there sentient Owen-bits still in Cardiff?

Conceptually, I get it. It's the practicality that has me confused, I suppose.

Yeah, the "I AM MAD AT BURNING PEOPLE! I WILL BLOW THEM UP INSTEAD!" thing had me scratching my head a bit. I assume there were people still in there/around. And that's...well, clearly Gwen has changed, huh?

[lawsontl.livejournal.com]

Well, the great thing about Jack is it doesn't HAVE to make sense. His VNA (love that) is indestructible. They established his immortality as an extreme example of what was already inexplicable. It's the heart of a TARDIS, of course it's ineffable.

What makes the whole Miracle thing hard to sort out is that they had to do something medically impossible to establish the impact in the first place, but then they're trying to support it using actual medical science.

I actually had to unofficially consult on a murder by immolation case many years ago, but you don't need to have seen pictures to know that, if the head is burned to the point that the entire surface is charred, the eyelids will no longer exist, nor will the eyeballs. So as we struggle to make sense of how the brain is still sending impulses to the eyes, we're missing that the eyes should no longer be there.

This is RTD's world, so a body does not have a soul. The bomber did not have enough of anything left to support even the most basic nerve impulses. Without oxygen and blood circulation, the brain should have died even if it didn't burn. Yet the Miracle causes *something* to remain, to cling to the remains, even. So, IMHO, if there's anything left, the Miracle is going to stick to it like glue.

As for Owen, that was different. It was Old Torchwood, where lapses in logic and science didn't matter so much. Owen's Not Death wasn't the core mystery of an entire season. Heck, it was barely the core of the episode in which he Didn't Die.

But, in the ep, even he and Toshiko agree: "my body will slowly decompose while I watch." Which makes sense. He couldn't drown, and the irradiated coolant may, um, poach him, but he won't die from that, either. So, um, yeah... There are potentially still bits of Owen hanging around in Turnmill, aware. Just depends on how long it takes a human body to decompose and what the mechanism was keeping his consciousness attached to a dead body.

As much as I'm happy for the shout-out to Ianto? They really should have been thinking of Owen at that point, because he's the closest thing they've ever seen to the Miracle.

[sariagray.livejournal.com]

It's funny the things my brain is willing to overlook, and the things it isn't. You're absolutely right that the eyeballs would not be there, but that didn't bother me a bit. But sentient ash? I cannot handle it. Not even because I think it's too horrible (which I do, obviously), but because it just...does not compute even as a fantasy concept. And normally, I can believe pretty much anything.

Like I said, it makes sense conceptually. Like math. It's just...applying it that makes my head spin. Which is weird, because I'm seeing the application, and I get the concept, so it should connect just fine. But...sentient ash?! *Flicks cigarette*

As for Owen...if his body rots, and there's still consciousness, does that consciousness end up as runoff into the bay? Are there sentient Owen-fish? Or does it become the soil? Are there sentient Owen-flowers or Owen-grass? This would be interesting.

And you're right; the mention of Owen in the first episode was nice, too, but it would be more interesting to connect that for the new audience. And in reality, I find it hard to believe that Gwen hasn't said anything like, "Is this Owen on a mass scale? Is there a really big glove?" Shout-outs to Ianto are great, but there's a whole team of people and past experiences that they're not pulling from, which doesn't make sense at all. Well. Of course it doesn't make sense. It's Torchwood. Never mind, carry on! :D

[lawsontl.livejournal.com]

As you said, it's funny what we are willing to accept and what we choose for further study. It'd be much easier if it had some sort of internal consistency, but it doesn't. I think that's what we're struggling with. The fact that we're TRYING to make sense of it is some sort of commentary on the human condition, I'm sure, only I'm afraid of whether it's literal or meta :)

Owen would be grass. Definitely grass.

"And what IS that smell?"

"That would be you..."