A Magical Island Called Torchwood (I KNEW this was Lost)

[sariagray]

I still don't know where I am on the spectrum of Torchwood-love right now.

Tonight's episode was...good. But I have some issues.

First - why is Jack dressed like that in 1927? No, really. It does NOT make sense. AT ALL. All it made me think was that Jack was not doing his linear Torchwood bit, but time-traveling back from some post-WWII time. He could NOT have gotten that coat or those clothes at that point unless 1) he commissioned it specially (and why would he do that?) or 2) he time-traveled (either jumped ahead to get the coat, or back after having gotten it in the first place).

Not to mention Jack talking about Nazis and the Third Reich like it would have the same sort of relevance for his audience was frustrating. What was more frustrating was that the guy seemed to be totally following along.

Now, I am no scholar of sartorial history, but is it not Established Fact in canon that the coat is WWII-era? If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But. Meh.

Also, Antonio? Alonzo? Damnit, I already forgot his name. He annoyed me. Honestly, I'm not interested in Jack's past except when it's in the immediacy of the present (think John Hart). So an extended Lifetime Original Movie (that I'm titling "The Coast of Amalfi" and which has a subplot starring Julia Roberts) was Not Interesting to me at all. In fact, it felt so totally...creepy, to be honest. There were sweet moments, but I didn't believe anything and really? Weird.

I am also kind of sick of Jack only being with men. What happened to omnisexuality? It's like they give us a figurehead for a progressive idea and strip him down to a weak stereotype. It makes me irate. 

Honestly, I find that I dislike the Jane Espenson episodes the most. So I checked on Wikipedia and lo and behold, she wrote this one.

In other news, Gwen was fierce, at least, and so was Andy, and I loved them both. I also loved Esther and Rex.

Can Jack die yet? I mean, okay, I like him well enough and his death would make me sad, but I just think it would be a good, solid culmination. This series has dragged on. I will watch it until the end, but I'm just not nearly as enthused as I want to be. I'm disappointed, I think. Just plain, flat-out disappointed.

And here is where I rambled about religious symbolism (Judas/Jesus shipper, anyone?) and religion in general (that was a really good speech that Jack made and would've been better if it wasn't so overacted), torture (no wonder the Valiant sucked a lot) and "I came back for you" (and "Hey, Ianto, I like you better because it wasn't your fault I got tortured!") and how it all comes full-circle, and I try to make it all make sense. It was a million paragraphs long. But now it's been reduced to a sentence. LJ's fault. Probably for the better.

ETA: I totally knew what the woman was going to say at the end, but I totally wanted her to say "Ianto Jones." Because that would've been hilarious/awesome/badass/wtf all at once.

Comments

[coldwater1010.livejournal.com]

So are we to assume the reason why the lesbians liked torturing Jack in Fragments was because they were Catholic?

[sariagray.livejournal.com]

No, of course not! Torture in the name of Science!

[kiraclara.livejournal.com]

I starting reading this and realized the repeat episode was on where I live so I got to watch the last thirty minutes and it felt like a soap opera and I'm not a huge fan of them. Still I actually enjoyed tge Jack and Gwen moments. I loved rex and ester just in that I one moment. Also wouldn't it have been amazing if they said ianto instead of Angelo, he just annoyed me a bit. I do want o know about the three men through.

[sariagray.livejournal.com]

It was very soap opera like. The Jack and Gwen moments were very nice, though. I love them, and where they've come. The same with Rex and Esther.

The three men are intriguing. Three points to a triangle? :) And I'm glad I'm not the only one annoyed by Angelo. :)

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

Jack had the coat in the Empty Child, with Rose and Nine, and he could have just had a tailor make one up from a sketch.

But I don't think that's what happened. I need to rewatch to get the timelines straight.

Torchwood's been into religious imagery since before Abaddon and Jack dying and Gwen rolling away the rock three days later and... wait, no. But close.

LOL, that ending would have been a kick in the pants, yo!

[sariagray.livejournal.com]

Okay, so he did have it then? I couldn't remember if it was the same one. But then he obviously didn't have it when he died on the Game Station. So. *Confused* *Needs coffee*

I like religious imagery a lot, for some reason, and maybe that's why I liked Torchwood so much, but they already did this religious symbol. I'd like to get to some slightly more obscure ones! :D

It would've been perfect timing and no one would've expected it!

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

He had the coat, but on the Game Station he changed. But the coat might still have been there, just not with him when he was made ded by Dalek.

Or he went back to 1927 after CoE. His wrist strap could get him off earth like a rocket, and god knows who could have fixed it somewhere in the universe. River Song had a good 'un, after all. I don't even know if that happened but it might have. Unclear!

[neeems.livejournal.com]

I haven't watched this episode yet, but dude, I am annoyed by MD, I'm just not excited anymore about it.

I think it's established that Jack's coat is a RAF coat from WWII.

As for Jack's death, YES. A thousand time yes. I love him, and sure, his death would make me sad, but God, I just think he needs a closure, and the show as well. And I don't really want to see him again in DW.

(oh, and I tend to dislike the Jane Espenson eps, too. Too bad beacause she's usually a great screenwriter, but she just doesn't fit with TW, imo)

[sariagray.livejournal.com]

I had gotten so hyped up, this is just a let-down. Oh well!

I'm glad I'm not making things up then! I do that sometimes! lol

Yeah, I really do want to close the book on Torchwood. That would be nice. And Gwen being the only one left wouldn't be a blessing, but a curse, and she would bear it because she's awesome, and...yep. Jack Must Die.

(I'm SO GLAD I'm not the only one! I agree completely)

[neeems.livejournal.com]

So true about Gwen and her awesomeness. By the way, hasn't RTD said somewhere that he wanted to create a new show based on Gwen or something?

[lawsontl.livejournal.com]

I'm still waiting for Unexpected!Ianto. Mostly because that would be a nice tweak on the Lying Liar Who Lies thing, much more interesting than him lying because he came from a poor family.

Maybe I'll never get that because I'm an American from a family that drug itself up from abject poverty to comfortable middle-classness in two generations?

[sariagray.livejournal.com]

Unexpected!Ianto would be a boon, really. And not just because...he's Ianto. Well, maybe. Suddenly the show would class itself up a bit!

And lying is always appreciated by me.

(Nope, you're right. That is exactly it).

[miss-bekahrose.livejournal.com]

I am so glad I'm not the only person who picked up on Jack's clothes/The Coat being COMPLETELY out of place. Starting to really irk me, HELLO! Jack DOES have other clothes, and we KNOW he dressed according to the era based on canon evidence.

I'm still trying to piece together my thoughts on the episode, but that was a huge stickler for me...

[sariagray.livejournal.com]

yay! I'm just glad I'm not crazy! I was like, "No, but really, why is he wearing this now? He wouldn't!"

I don't think TW would let him go on a mission in clothing like that; I could maybe buy that he wears it in the Hub, but not out on a mission.

[analineblue.livejournal.com]

Okay, so now that there's all this talk about this possibly being post-COE Jack I'm just... Really confused?? Even more so than I was watching it last night. XD; I mean, timelines make me crazy anyway, and honestly, I think MD feels so different from old-TW and especially DW that I really wasn't even considering this possibility for the seeming anachronism of the coat, you know? But I suppose it is one, right? AND WHAT DOES THAT MEAN. GAH. I'm supposed to consider the possibility that Jack...came back after COE and THOTD... To have an affair with this guy? Really? T__T I just... will need to think on this, lol. Right now though, this thought completely distresses me. *__*

*sigh*

[/not making sense] :P

[siobhan-jane.livejournal.com]

Wait, what?! I just started reading these comments. People are thinking this was Post COE Jack back in time with Angelo???? Wow. That would be both awesome and horrible. I don't think he would fall for Angelo like that after Ianto...or maybe he would. Maybe the "men like you" line was really about Ianto...

But I like the idea of the relationship with Angelo being a reason Jack was both attracted to Ianto and reluctant to be with Ianto and how much of a risk it took to be with Ianto. That makes me love Jack in a heartbreaking way.

[sariagray.livejournal.com]

Turns out Jane has said that it's NOT Post-COE Jack. But she also says it's not necessarily Pre-Season 1 Jack. Which basically means, in my opinion, that she/they messed up and are now covering themselves.

[siobhan-jane.livejournal.com]

I did think it was odd because he said he was a fixed point. He didn't know that in 1927....right? I mean when did the Doctor tell him that? Or am I wrong?

[siobhan-jane.livejournal.com]

No. I'm right, right? That was after TW Season 1. They messed up. OR it is Post-COE Jack.

[sariagray.livejournal.com]

I just read something where it's implied that there are numerous time lines or something. I really just think she has no idea what she's talking about. NOTHING makes sense. And the 700 years doesn't fit at all, anyway. No matter how you look at it.

[siobhan-jane.livejournal.com]

This is kind of making my head hurt.

While I was watching I kept catching Jack/Ianto things:

Knocking Angelo to the floor and being on top of him..so Jack/Ianto rolling around on floor.

The Jack being sensitive to Angelo's concerns about being gay. He never was with Ianto.

The "came back for you" line.

The "men like you line"

The fixed point in time line.

There are too many things...either she really messed up...or it was on purpose for some reason.

[xrai-namere.livejournal.com]

You already know how I feel about this episode, but I'm here to say I agree with you about the lack of Jack's portrayal as omnisexual. Not only is it a stereotype, it does not do him justice as the character (and role model) he is.
And with all this talk about his relationship with Angelo and how it affected the one he had with Ianto and at one point I saw John Hart dragged into a discussion too, it makes me feel like all his other love interests in the show, female or otherwise, have just been abandoned at the wayside.

[sariagray.livejournal.com]

♥

They...I don't think they've been abandoned. I think they all shape Jack, the same way our own personal relationships shape us. I think it also depends on when this actually takes place in Jack's timeline. That said, it didn't really change much of anything, did it?

Because Jack was still (canonically) Jack when he made it through the 1930s-present day.

I think it's sort of a way of saying, "Yes, Jack was perfectly capable of having this with Ianto." Because all we had to compare, previously, were Estelle and Lucia and John. None of those relationships could be paralleled with Ianto, I think, because the situations were different (the partner not knowing about Jack's immortality, or knowing and hating him for it, or being with Jack pre-Doctor). But Angelo...fits more, I think. It's still different, but it shows us a side that Jack was absolutely capable of showing to someone he was with.

I don't think it's exclusive, though, if that makes sense. How he is with Ianto is absolutely a product of all of his previous experiences and Ianto's own personality and experiences as well.

*Stops rambling*

[xrai-namere.livejournal.com]

I probably should have phrased my comment differently. I didn't feel so much that Jack's other love interests have been abandoned in fandom. It just happens that in a discussion, John was suddenly pulled in despite his relationship with Jack being quite different from the one he had with Ianto and Angelo. And it made me D:. Granted, I was getting irrationally upset about the continuity discussion already. Just happens that your comment about Jack's sudden departure from omnisexuality (I don't count him ogling that woman while he was trying to seduce Angelo as an adequate example) made me crave desperately for some het!Jack.

As for everything else in your ramble, I agree. I had no problem with the episode (I liked it, in fact, quite a bit) except for being briefly squicked out and OMG THAT CONTINUITY DEBATE, ARGH!

[siobhan-jane.livejournal.com]

Just watched.

Ugh. I'm so torn with how I feel about this episode (and the season in general).

Overall, I seem to enjoy the eps when there is more Jack/Gwen/Rhys/Andy then when the other characters are involved, so I did enjoy it.

However, I resented a lot of the intimate Jack/Angelo stuff...for obvious reasons. And I'm a bit peeved with Jane for using the "I came back for you" line.

But, I loved the torture of Jack and the betrayal by Angelo and the LOVED the "men like you kill me line." It adds to the Jack and Ianto love story. It must have been hard for Jack to be in love with Ianto...and Ianto's betrayal...and then taking him back...I mean think about it. SO much there. It really makes sense.

But I also resent that Ianto is never mentioned or acknowledged.

I'm so very torn.

[sariagray.livejournal.com]

I'm still torn about MD and this episode as well! (Sorry, thought I'd responded earlier - that's what I get for trying to do it through email!)

I really do agree - those episodes/scenes are best. I like Team Wales best of all, really.

I don't even resent the Jack/Angelo stuff for the lack of Ianto (I'm not saying that that's your reasoning - just blathering here lol). I think it's more that I like more lead-in. Sex scenes generally make me uncomfortable when they're that explicit. Unless it's porn and I'm watching for explicit. I need to be totally involved with the other character's life, and I just didn't care about Angelo. I think maybe I would feel differently if it were Ianto, not because I'm a Ianto fangirl, but because I had a vested interest in both characters individually and in a relationship. This just felt too forced, I think.

"Men like you kill me" was chillingly awesome. And I loved the torture scene too! I wrote up this whole long thing about Ianto's relationship with Jack in this - basically, that Jack was able to trust Ianto again, to open himself up to that again, was really incredible. Even when there was repeated betrayal. I think, though, it was the motives that helped. It wasn't fear, or hatred, or twisted concepts of science that drove Ianto to his betrayal. It was love, or for Jack's own good and/or the good of the world, that did it. And I think that's why Ianto always had Jack's respect and understanding, something that Angelo lost.

Ianto was mentioned the once, at least. I mean, I guess I just wish ALL of them were mentioned. You would think you would reminisce about your dead colleagues more fondly when the situations of their death remind you of the current situation (Owen, Suzie). Gwen's line about Ianto being around if this had happened earlier or whatever, was a pretty nice (in my opinion, anyway) tribute and a nod to the fans who've made the exact same point. That RTD/whoever wrote it had Gwen say it was extra nice, I think.

Yep. Still torn. *Sigh* Who knows what'll happen now.

Also, what happened to Oswald and Jilly?! I was enjoying them, too.

[eldarwannabe.livejournal.com]

IF SHE HAD SAID "IANTO JONES" I THINK FANDOM WOULD HAVE CRIED OUT WITH A MILLION VOICES OF SQUEE AND DISTURBED THE FORCE.

That would have been amazing, NGL. It would have confirmed my crack!theory that they only flew out GDL for the radio plays as a cover to smuggle him on set to film some shots. He could have played the evil version of Ianto he always talked about. SO AWESOME.

Something about this episode (and it may have been my state of mind watching it) just clicked with me. I really enjoyed it, and the absolute screw-up that is Jack's continuity in the episode is only giving me more fandom meta stuff to think about, instead of bothering me right now. I've largely given up on RTD, so I ignore anything he should have done. And we always knew Jack had other loves, I like seeing one fleshed out. The flashbacks were laughably tacked on, the costuming department doesn't have google access and Andy got a magic upgrade.

Look! It's Torchwood! Hey, plot holes the size of lorries!

(Feel free to ignore me. I think I might have lost it somewhere around midnight.)

[sariagray.livejournal.com]

I agree with your crack!theory! Why would you fly someone out for a radio play when...all you need is their voice? Do they not have recording equipment in the UK?

I STILL want the series to end (as I've been saying since they started shooting) with Jack sitting in a dark room, drinking something, and then there's this shadowy figure behind him. And all you hear is "Hello, Jack" all creepily. And the camera pans, and you see Jack freeze, and then the obvious profile of Ianto.

Or, that Ianto's like the observer in Fringe and he keeps showing up in random episodes, and no one notices him. :D

I'm glad you enjoyed it! I think I just made the mistake of getting my hopes up SO much that it just...didn't reach my expectations. Not that I know what I expected, but yeah. I have no problem seeing a former love fleshed out. I just didn't like Angelo from the start. Then again, I also didn't like real!CJH much either. I liked John, though! I would LOVE to see John/Jack flashbacks! Or even Jack/Estelle, or Jack/Lucia! I just think that there's already so much more mentioned of his past, it would've been nice if they elaborated on something there (even one of his random "I had this boyfriend once..." tales, a throwaway) already.

I SO love Andy's magic upgrade. 1 Up!

[eldarwannabe.livejournal.com]

At this point, I suspect my crack!theory will only work if episode 10 ends with Jack waking up in a bed, going to the bathroom and pulling back the shower curtain to reveal a naked Ianto taking a perfectly ordinary shower, a la Dallas. (nancybrown suggested that possibility for episode one, waaaay back when.)

But I like your theories! Oh, the fic we cold write *dances* (But...can Ianto keep his hair if he's an observer? Because his hair!)

All I was really expecting was Jack flirting and 1920's clothes and sets, so I was all "LOOK. IT'S ELLIS ISLAND. PROHIBITION. SING SING!"

I might be alone in liking Angelo, though. I like to think Jack doesn't use important relationships in his throwaway lines, and this (like Lucia, Estelle, John and Ianto) was an important one, especially because of how it ended. I like to think Jack might have told Ianto about Angelo. Even more so, I like to draw the lines of similarity and difference between Angelo and Ianto, because they are fascinating. (Jack rolled around with both of them on the floor as a form of foreplay!) I do wish Angelo had been a woman, though. Or an alien. If we're going to get a glimpse into more of Jack's past relationships, can we have a little variety? (And I would LOVE more on Lucia. SO MUCH.)

Welsh Police/SWAT team people: Andy! Here's a gun! Go to!