A Lot of Jack, A Bit of Time.

[sariagray]

There isn’t much to connect these points, other than that they were things I thought of before falling asleep last night (oh, the bedtime stories we tell ourselves!). They are all Jack, and they all relate, somewhat, to time.

There are spoilers up through 4.07 in here, too.

The first point I have to make assumes that the flashbacks in 4.07 were of Jack taking the slow path, prior to reuniting with the Doctor. There are numerous problems with this, but that’s what I’m ultimately taking as personal canon until proven otherwise.

Basically, Jack tells Angelo about the Doctor and his Companions. The implication is that Jack will be the Doctor, Angelo will be his companion. He will impart this wonderful knowledge and they will run a lot, and Jack will change Angelo’s life for the better. He’ll make this backwards village boy, this conman, a better person. Maybe he sees Angelo as he sees his past self.

And then, Angelo commits the ultimate betrayal and tells Caiaphas et al that Jack is in the garden of Gethsemane. Well, close enough. They beat him and killed him over and over. (And remember when I wrote my Torchwood take on Jesus Christ Superstar? Angelo just totally kicked John Hart out for the role of Judas.)

This betrayal? It is made even worse because Jack is self-flagellant and Angelo just confirmed that Jack would be as good as the Doctor. Never. Because the Doctor’s companions, as far as Jack knows, don’t betray him beyond disobeying instructions to 1) stay in the Tardis and 2) not get captured. Or, if they do, it’s never personal. It’s never out of ultimate hatred or fear. It’s always for the Doctor’s benefit, or the greater good of the world (whichever world that may be at the time), or love.

And this is where Ianto comes in. Despite having been so painfully and utterly betrayed, Jack forgives Ianto’s many betrayals. First, and most glaringly obvious, is Lisa. This is a betrayal that causes death – both Jack’s and that of other innocent parties. But, despite Ianto lashing out, the physical betrayal (bringing Lisa into the Hub) has nothing to do with Jack whatsoever. He may have used and manipulated Jack, but if we listen to Machiavelli, it’s completely justified. He did it to save his lover, and he did it without wishing to harm anyone else. He was truly convinced that he could save her.

Honestly, that’s what makes a Companion. The steadfastness, the capacity for love, the passion and the fire. Jack knows this, recognizes it for what it is, and that is why he can forgive Ianto.

Later, Ianto betrays Jack again when the team goes to open the rift, and again in giving Gwen the location of Flat Holm, and again in the House of the Dead (if you consider this to be canon). Each time, it was to save the world, or Jack, or both.

Opening the rift in End of Days was supposed to save the world. Lisa doesn’t tell Ianto that she’ll come back if he opens the rift. No, she says, “There's only one way to stop this, before things get worse. People will die, Ianto. Thousands of people. Unless you open the Rift.”

Disobeying Jack’s obvious stance on Gwen’s involvement in Flat Holm was for the betterment of the island itself (I’m convinced that, while he doesn’t think Gwen will give up, he also thinks she can help) and to lessen the burden on Jack.

In The House of the Dead, Ianto lies outright to Jack in order to successfully close the rift AND to keep Jack from this suicidal notion of floating in oblivion for the rest of eternity. His last act was his final betrayal and even then, it was for the greater good of the people he loves.

This is why, despite his previous experience with betrayal and its relative pain, Jack can forgive and stand by Ianto fully trusting in him. He may not be able to trust that Ianto will always be honest, or follow orders, but he can trust that Ianto has his (and the world’s) best interests at heart. Ianto makes Jack feel like he can be as good as the Doctor, if not better, and that’s extremely important to his character.

Now, some other things about Jack (and, vaguely, time).

A common thing I’ve seen in both fic and discussion is Jack’s supposed inability to use modern technology. I know, I’m pretty sure I’ve used it before myself. But I was considering it last night, and it doesn’t really make sense.

I understand that, when familiar with advanced technology, archaic forms are more difficult to master despite their “simplicity” and limited natures. Say we were sent back in time and had to craft something. I know I would be at a loss if settled in front of a loom and told to work it, despite my ability to use a contemporary sewing machine.

However, if you sent me back in time and I spent years around people who used looms, if I watched those looms being invented and advertised and settled into homes, of course I would be able to figure it out. It’s no different than any new invention now. We don’t have inbred knowledge of how it works – we learn. Jack has spent over a hundred years on Earth (I’m counting only time spent active and…not buried underground). There is no reason why he’d be incapable of using a microwave. Not in 2008, at any rate. Perhaps when he first had to use one, sure, but not after decades of their existence in society.

Jack is extremely intelligent. He is not only educated, he’s street smart. He’s had more experiences than most people, even before becoming a fixed point. A clever man whose lived through a chain of inventions. He’s watched, slowly, the world go from the Teleprinter to the iPhone. He’s probably had to use everything in between at some point or another. It’s like the montage in Fragments. (Here from 7:08-7:51).

Another thing I see a lot of, and have abused myself, is the concept of Jack’s memory. Do I think it possible for Jack to remember Ianto in “a thousand years’ time” without actively and constantly working at it? No, of course not. But it’s not impossible to imagine that he can recall 160 years’ time with a good deal of accuracy.

I know it’s difficult for us to imagine due to two things: youth and old age. Personally, I don’t remember much of when I was five years old. I am twenty four now. This doesn’t mean that my brain only has the capacity to store nineteen years of information. However, at five, my brain was developing and I was learning so many high-level concepts that everything else was quickly forgotten in favor of things like effective communication and socially acceptable behaviors.

And then, at the end of one’s life, memory fades. It doesn’t have as much to do with the amount of time that has passed, but the deterioration of the brain itself.

Jack’s brain has been preserved at the capacity and health of someone in their 30s/40s. His capacity for memory is huge and the added knowledge that he has to remember certainly helps. It isn’t endless storage space (unless being fixed point also “fixes” his memories for eternity, which would be an interesting concept to explore), and it certainly would require effort, but it’s not impossible.

I don’t imagine that he’d remember everything ever. I sure as hell can’t recall what I had for breakfast last week, or even what the last movie I saw in theaters might have been, but that is all trivial information. If Jack considers something important enough to remember, I have absolutely no doubts that he would be able to accomplish it for a good length of time.

And that’s…well, that’s all I have to say for now.

*Wanders off*

Comments

[kiraclara.livejournal.com]

I just stopped and read this and enjoyed it. Now I'm off to write.

[sariagray.livejournal.com]

Thanks! Good luck with the writing. :)

[lawsontl.livejournal.com]

Well put, on all of it!

Firstly, I completely agree re: Ianto. I haven't put it that well before, but that's been exactly where my brain is. Essentially, Ianto's betrayals weren't selfish. Yes, they were decisions he made based on his priorities, but they were never just for himself.

The Jack-as-an-idiot trope drives me batty. Sadly, the show itself often doesn't help!

I always sort of figured Jack's tin box of photographs was one of the ways he remembered people and things that meant something to him. All the more heartbreaking that it, too, was lost in the Hub's explosion.

[sariagray.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I need to stop contemplating when I should be asleep, I think. :D

they were decisions he made based on his priorities, but they were never just for himself

And I think that's the crux of the issue; it's all about where the priorities of these people lie. Look at John and at Angelo for comparison. It's not about their actions, but their motivations, and their motivations stem from their priorities (all of ours do).

That is exactly how I see Jack's tin box, too. It takes work to remember everything, and there are different levels of memory, to boot. He may need assistance, but I don't think he's going to forget Important Things easily.

[analineblue.livejournal.com]

*nods in agreement* I've always felt that Jack was able to forgive Ianto, on all accounts, every time, for very similar reasons to what you mentioned. Because while Lisa, and opening the rift, and even THOTD are all betrayals in some sense of the word, they're nowhere near on the scale of what Angelo does to Jack. (Or, for that matter, what the Doctor does, in abandoning him, but that's probably another discussion?)

I think Jack understands why Ianto does the things he does, most clearly with Lisa, because I think Jack can understand the need to throw everything away for the person you love, but even with the Rift and Flat Holm and all of that, like you said, these are things Ianto does with some understandable goal and good intentions.

And Angelo? Well, I can't really see any good in what he does to Jack. The first death, maybe you could chalk up to ridiculous curiosity or something, or hey, maybe he really does think Jack is The Devil. But after that? Watching the pain Jack is in, and essentially allowing them to torture him over and over? It's completely on a different scale than even John Hart, you know. :P And that's saying something!

...Did I have a point here? XD; Maybe? :P

Anyway, yes. Very well-put. *applauds* (You, not me. :P)

[sariagray.livejournal.com]

lol Applaud yourself, too! Go ahead.

And you do have points. Lots of them!

I think maybe you're onto something with Jack and the Doctor, though. There's...fear and guilt and hatred and all of these are ways that people handle Jack. And then there's Ianto who...isn't like that. He "hates" Jack during Cyberwoman, but I think he hates himself much more.

[analineblue.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I have always though that the whole "you're a monster" thing is just sort of a manifestation of all the really complex emotions Ianto is feeling at the time, kind of like a gut-reaction, lashing out at Jack because he's there, and because he has some level of power over the situation. And to shift a little of the blame onto someone else for a moment, too, maybe. Because I definitely agree that Ianto hates himself way more than he ever hated Jack over what happens with Lisa...

And you're right, I just don't think Ianto ever comes close to hurting Jack the way other people have. The Doctor included. I've always felt like Jack gets dealt a really terrible hand when he's abandoned like that. :/ Like, the Doctor likes him well enough when they're just hanging out, but not enough to bother with him when he's responsible for changing the very nature of his existence, and there's a chance that he'll have to deal with him long-term, you know? :(

[coldwater1010.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure about the memory. This is a guy who still remembered everything after being buried alive for almost 2,000 years. If that's possible then the idea that he'd remember people 100s or even a 1000 years after the fact doesn't seem all that inconceivable.

I agree about the technology though. Despite evidence to the contrary sometimes Jack is supposed to be bright, capable and adaptable with not only experience of technologies far more advanced than our own, but someone who literally lived through the period our technologies were developed.

Of course I've never got the idea of Jack being incapable of comprehending the 20th century mores of his team either. If anything he should have more understanding since he's spent over a hundred years having to live through and adapt to them, starting from the late 19th century and has in fact spent considerable more time as a 20th century citizen than as a 51st century one. That has to have some sort of influence.

[sariagray.livejournal.com]

Well, essentially, I think it depends on whether or not he was "awake" during the 2000 years. If he was, then that's a feat and you're absolutely right. If not, I imagine it's like sleep, where time passes strangely. Also, he wasn't interacting with others/there was no external stimuli in that situation. So nothing to cloud his memories. But overall, that was my point - that Jack absolutely has the ability to remember people. Sorry if I didn't express that clearly!

I agree with your point on social mores, too - Jack has spent his formative years, admittedly, in the 51st century, but over a century growing and experiencing everything would certainly make him less...condescending/inept.

[coldwater1010.livejournal.com]

So nothing to cloud his memories. But overall, that was my point - that Jack absolutely has the ability to remember people. Sorry if I didn't express that clearly!

Well despite what the show suggests being buried alive is a pretty traumatic experience and that would mess with his head even if he was only awake for a portion of that time, but I get your point.

[jedi-harkness.livejournal.com]

Great food for thought there! I totally agree about Ianto.

One friend had an interesting theory, that every time Jack comes back to life his memories "refresh", if that makes any sense. Ep 7 made it seem like Jack wasn't quite putting together that Angelo's actions might have led to the Miracle, which is curious because there were hints before MD aired that Jack would know more about it than everyone else (which would be so bloody Jack!).

[crimsonkildare.livejournal.com]

First let me say that I loved your essay here! I agree with it more or less completely, but I do have a couple things I want to highlight or point out.
1. This has inspired a fic! I cannot wait to write it! ;)
2. Jack, Ianto, Angelo, love and Betrayal. I agree completely! Jack is a very forgiving man, because in many ways he sees himself as someone who's needed a lot of forgiving. He refuses to cast the first stone so to speak. However Ianto is easier to forgive than most, because he is so decent, so honest, so loyal and loving. When he fucks up, he does it for all the right reasons! This is also why I think Jack loved Ianto more than anyone else he's loved. It took a lot for Jack to risk his heart, to even try to trust enough to love again, to be willing to come back for someone again, but Ianto is so rare a person, so genuine and unselfish. Jack cannot help but love him and eventually cannot deny how he feels, so despite all the past pains and betrayals, even Ianto's he allows himself to love him.
3. Jack's intelligence. Jack is brilliant, intellectually, academically and in regard to people and the mean streets too. He can handle any technology up to the 51rst century and any other portrayal is erroneous. He was able to repair the TARDIS without the Doctor looking over his shoulder. THAT says something about his smarts right there!
4. Jack's memory...
This goes into what jediharkness was talking about, I'm that friend with the theory. It goes like this...
Jack resets to the exact moment he died for the first time at the hands of the Daleks every time he dies. So he should never age at all (The bit in DW about vanity and gray hairs? Writer error, a BIG one) and both his physical and mental state and capacities reset. This mean his ability to cope with stress, pain, emotional loss and so on refreshes and so does his memory. Now does he actively recall every single thing, every single second of his life? No. It works the way normal memory does. He recalls the majority of his total life as highlights and the last say 80 to a 100 years more freshly. However when a trigger is activated, a sound, a smell, a photo, a like event or comment and so on, a specific something will come back in full. So he never forgets anything. It's all stored in his subconscious mind just like ours is. You do realize that we don't forget things, we just put some things in subconscious storage, right?
As for being buried alive for 2000 yrs? He was conscious for it, that was the torture of it. Yet he didn't go mad, that's the reset at work. Clearly. You see an infinite life span would require an infinite for physical and mental functionality, otherwise Jack would be a wrinkled lump of gibbering flesh by now.
Thanks for bringing all this up.
C.

[crimsonkildare.livejournal.com]

This page doesn't allow message editing, so allow me to point out here that last line should have read ...You see an infinite life span would require an infinite capacity for physical and mental functionality, otherwise Jack would be a wrinkled lump of gibbering flesh by now.
Thanks.
C.

[fide-et-spe.livejournal.com]

Lovely and thoughtful. I agree with all of it. I think Jack is extremely clever in canon, but for some reason there is a perception of him as an idiot, who couldn't cook himself breakfast. I never really understand where it comes from, but I think it may be something to do with Dr Who, when Jack is first in it, again he's clever, he can work the Tardis, and repair it, he has incredible knowledge of all sorts of things. But especially when he is with Ten, he often gets treated by the Doctor like he's a bit of an idiot.

Also I think it's an issue of people confusing Jack with JB, not that JB isn't clever, but you often notice Jack is given his personality in fanfic, when in fact Jack is a very different personality.

Totally agree about Ianto, basically he is very loyal, and very protective of Jack. When the others opened the rift, it was for selfish reasons, Ianto was terrified to see Lisa, he didn't have the same motives as the others, he did it for the greater good.